Recently, the U.S. government proposed to form a "Chip4" with South Korea, Japan and Taiwan Province, China, which seems to be intended to exclude Chinese mainland from the semiconductor supply chain system.
On May 24th, in the program of the second season of China Heli, the host Yang Lan and Professor Liu Yadong, Dean of School of Journalism and Communication of Nankai University, reviewed the development of science and technology in China, and explored China's scientific exploration, technological innovation and promotion of scientific spirit.
Liu Yadong said, "Chip is not a product or an industry, but an industrial chain. It is impossible for any country to establish a completely localized industrial chain, which must be the product of international cooperation. At present, the most essential reason for the problems in China's scientific and technological circles is the lack of scientific spirit, and critical questioning is the essence and core of scientific spirit.
Interview: Yang Lan, Dean of School of Journalism and Communication, Nankai University, Liu Yadong and former editor-in-chief of Science and Technology Daily
Editor: Mi Liping Source: Zhenghe Island
Yang Lan: Hello, I'm Yang Lan. This programme is honored to invite Professor Liu Yadong, Dean of School of Journalism and Communication of Nankai University, to sort out the development of science and technology in China together with Liu Jiaoshou, and explore the sum of scientific exploration, technological innovation and promotion of scientific spirit in China. Hello, Dean Liu.
Liu Yadong: Hello.
yang LAN: thank you for coming to our program. In recent years, ordinary people can see that our country has made many achievements in scientific research and technological innovation, such as manned space flight, Mars exploration and deep-sea research.
Liu Yadong: Over the past 4 years of reform and opening up, especially since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, China has made great achievements in many high-tech fields. The World Intellectual Property Organization released the Global Innovation Index Report 221, in which China ranked 12th in the world, two places ahead of 22. In fact, since 213, China has been steadily rising in this ranking for nine consecutive years, and the momentum is still very good.
yang LAN: this also indicates a kind of stamina, stamina for development.
Liu Yadong: Yes, it shows that the development momentum of science and technology in our country is still very good.
Liu Yadong: As we all know, the semiconductor industry has a long chain, including chip design, chip manufacturing, chip packaging and testing, and so on. Therefore, the blockade of the United States on us includes Chip4. In fact, it mainly focuses on the manufacturing process of semiconductor chips. I think it is to contain and suppress China in this process.
yang LAN: the chip is indeed known as "the oil of the new era". Of course, it is not an energy source, but it does need to be used everywhere, such as new energy vehicles and mobile phones. In the future, everything will be connected. In fact, everything may have chips on it.
Liu Yadong: Without oil or its derivatives, our society can't function at all, especially chips. Our country imported 51 million tons of crude oil last year, and the import amount was about 25 billion US dollars. As far as semiconductor chips are concerned, since 218, our import amount has exceeded 3 billion US dollars, and it has soared since then. By 221, our country's imported chips have reached 44 billion US dollars.
yang LAN: it has surpassed oil.
Liu Yadong: There are too many, and the importance of chips is self-evident. That's why the United States has concentrated its efforts to contain and suppress China in the field of chips.
but Chip4, personally, is still full of great uncertainties.
First of all, in the United States, many American enterprises have deep cooperation with China. For example, Intel Corporation, which has been rooted in China for almost 4 years, has a good cooperative relationship with China. A company like this, if you don't let others make money, will definitely have a huge rebound, so there is also great resistance to the implementation of this policy in the United States.
Secondly, countries like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan Province, China, have no obligation to obey the United States 1%. For example, South Korea's Samsung Company has built a large memory factory in Xi 'an, which is the only flash memory factory built by Samsung overseas. It is said that it accounts for more than half of Samsung's memory output value, so you said that Samsung would not do this business because it listened to the orders of the United States. I don't think so.
yang LAN: it is also quite difficult for them to really implement it.
Liu Yadong: In fact, compared with other parts, the United States is also its shortcoming in semiconductor manufacturing. As far as the manufacture of semiconductor chips is concerned, the share of the United States in the global market is only 12%, so now the Biden administration has also taken various measures to try to improve the shortcomings of the United States in semiconductor manufacturing.
yang LAN: I remember you once said that "it's hard to make chips, but it's hard to make atomic bombs". How do you explain this? Explain it to the people in common language?
Liu Yadong: OK, technically speaking, the atomic bomb is certainly difficult, but it is actually more of an economic problem. It takes about 2 tons of uranium to extract one kilogram of weapons-grade enriched uranium, and about 15 kilograms of enriched uranium to build an ordinary atomic bomb, which requires 3 tons of natural uranium. Do you have so many uranium mines? Even if you do, it will take a lot of manpower, material resources and financial resources to purify it.
yang LAN: then it sounds difficult enough. why is the chip more difficult?
Liu Yadong: A chip is totally different from building an atomic bomb. Chip is not a product or an industry, but an industrial chain. This small chip may be as small as a fingernail, but it is a master of industrial civilization of all mankind so far, involving many industries, such as machinery, electronics, metallurgy, chemicals, materials and so on.
Take mask aligner, a piece of equipment used in the manufacturing of semiconductor chips, as an example, the Dutch ASML is the best manufacturer of mask aligner, and it is the only one in the world that makes the ultra-violet mask aligner. Although the extreme ultraviolet lithography machine is made in the Netherlands, there are more than 2, manufacturers providing parts for it. These more than 2, manufacturers are top enterprises from all developed countries in the world, and we call them "invisible champions" or industry leaders.
So you can see that it is impossible for any country to establish a completely localized industrial chain, which must be the product of international cooperation.
yang LAN: so in fact, you also mentioned that we should not use the national system to realize the development of chips.
Liu Yadong: The national system is an institutional presentation of our socialism in China, and it is one of our advantages. It is not that we can't use the national system, but that the previous national system is not suitable for developing semiconductor chips.
yang LAN: why?
Liu Yadong: What the national system can do is when the path is clear, for example, athletes win gold medals. Some sports are obviously not popular in our country, but under the national system, they can quickly improve their performance and even win gold medals. You can win a gold medal or build an atomic bomb. Why? The atomic bomb is not a commodity, and there is no problem of industrialization or cost.
But chips are different. Chips are commodities. For example, people make chips for $1. If you make them, don't say $1, that's $2. It's useless to make them, because the market doesn't accept them, which means they are rubbish and useless. So I said that the previous national system can't be used to develop chips.
The national system should keep pace with the development of the situation, and we should establish a new national system. The characteristics of the new national system must play a role under the conditions of socialist market economy, so that the market can play a decisive role in resource allocation and the government can play a better role.
yang LAN: it is not a problem that can be solved by mobilizing all resources at once and investing at no cost. in fact, it is to build a mechanism.
Liu Yadong: That's right.
yang LAN: when it comes to science and technology, we often confuse it. for example, we will talk about high technology and technological innovation. but from the perspective of studying the history of science, science and technology cannot be confused. can you sort it out for everyone in this respect?
Liu Yadong: Yes, because science and technology are two completely different concepts. Of course, there is a connection between them. Science helps us to know and discover nature, and technology helps us to conquer and transform nature.
The combination of science and technology in Chinese has caused many misunderstandings. For example, when we talk about technological innovation, this statement is actually wrong. Why? Because technology can innovate, science can't.
because the research object of science is the mystery of nature and the essence of the universe, and its truths and laws exist objectively, this thing must be separated. Scientific and technological innovation is wrong. It can be said that technological innovation can only be found.
Yang Lan: Yes, sometimes the language itself can bring us some confusion.
Liu Yadong: I'm not talking about words. It doesn't matter if everyone knows these things clearly when they are just an expression.
but the problem is that when you make these false statements, it actually reflects that you don't understand the different development laws of science and technology.
yang LAN: in the list of the top 1 innovative institutions in the world in 222, we found that 35 companies were from Japan, 18 companies were from the United States, and only 5 companies from Chinese mainland were selected. what kind of gap and room for development does this tell us? What kind of harmonious but different relationship do you think is between open cooperation and independent innovation?
Liu Yadong: Actually, it still reflects that our country's innovation ability is relatively weak. We say that science has no national boundaries, and technology has always had national boundaries. Although our international environment has become more sinister than before, Sino-US relations have not yet seen signs of warming up.
However, globalization will eventually develop in depth, so it is impossible for any country to be the first in the world in every technology, and it is impossible for any country to solve all the innovation problems entirely on its own.
so I think the right thing to do is to sort out correctly which products and technologies we jointly develop, which things can be introduced, digested and absorbed, and then innovated, which ones we introduce today, which ones will be replaced by domestic ones tomorrow, and which ones should be tackled by ourselves and finally made a breakthrough.
In fact, the most important thing is to form an effective balance and exchange ability, rather than a unilateral dependence on other countries in technology. Therefore, I say that the road of independent innovation in China is a road that emphasizes both autonomy and cooperation.
yang LAN: in 218, science and technology daily published a column-"core technologies to be overcome urgently", which was the first time that domestic media combed some technical problems to be overcome in great detail. Why did you design such a topic and column at that time? Can you tell me your thoughts?
Liu Yadong: Over the past 4 years of reform and opening-up, especially in recent years, our country's economic development is still very fast, and the total GDP growth is also very fast. By 221, the total GDP of our country will be 114 trillion RMB, or US$ 17.7 trillion, and the GDP of the United States will reach US$ 23.4 trillion. In this case, we can see that China's GDP is close to 3/4 of that of the United States. Under this circumstance, our whole country is filled with a sense of pride.
But inevitably, some people are also complicated with arrogance. In 218, in response to some public opinions and irrational thoughts, we opened this column, called "Core Technologies to be Overcomed". We should not only fully affirm our achievements, but also clearly recognize our gaps and shortcomings.
the competition between national strengths is often reflected in a kind of technical discourse power and the ability to control the industrial chain, which are important.
yang LAN: don't be blind and arrogant.
Liu Yadong: Yes, only by recognizing the gap can you make up for it.
Yang Lan: Last year, you wrote an article that was widely circulated in many enterprises, including Huawei. Mr. Ren Zhengfei also recommended it, that is, you asked the question, "What do we lack besides core technology?"? What else is missing?
Liu Yadong: In June 218, I gave a speech that was widely circulated on the Internet. In that speech, I put forward three points. In fact, what I want to lack is far more than these three points. At that time, I talked about these three points: lack of scientific arms, lack of craftsmanship, and lack of perseverance.
last September, I saw some social phenomena and practices of some enterprises, and felt it necessary to discuss this issue further, so I wrote an article saying that it has been three years since I raised the issue of "sticking my neck", but many people still don't understand what we are missing except those core technologies.
in the past, when the external environment was good, we often neglected to develop our own core technology. Then when the external environment is not good, such as Sino-US relations going downhill, there is another tendency at this time, that is, we have various advantages, so we can do everything without them.