Editor? /? Zhang
Design? /? Zhao Haoran
"We are backward in the core technology of fuel cell vehicles. At the beginning of this century, China's hydrogen fuel cell technology was also backward compared with the international developed countries, but the gap was relatively small. The overall gap is now widening. " Professor Guo Liejin, academician of China Academy of Sciences and director of the State Key Laboratory of Multiphase Flow in Power Engineering of Xi Jiaotong University, said seriously.
10 10 19, at the lunch time of the 2020 UNDP hydrogen energy industry conference held in Foshan, Academician Guo Liejin, who has been dealing with hydrogen for 23 years, accepted an exclusive interview with auto business review. He said that hydrogen is an energy-carrying substance, and hydrogen energy is a secondary energy that needs primary energy to be processed and transformed (it belongs to secondary energy with electricity, gasoline and diesel). It is a kind of secondary energy-carrying material that meets the needs of human sustainable development in the future in energy conversion and transformation.
The national energy strategy proposes to develop a clean, low-carbon, safe and efficient modern energy supply system, and only hydrogen energy meets the requirements. In the field of fuel cell electric vehicles with the most hydrogen energy application scenarios, automobile powers such as Europe, America, Japan and South Korea developed earliest. Developing hydrogen energy society and fuel cell electric vehicles has become a long-term strategic choice of these developed countries, and it is also a question for the sustainable development of mankind.
As a developing country, should China follow suit to develop a hydrogen energy society and hydrogen energy vehicles? China's economic, technological, cultural and market atmosphere and conditions, is it time to develop a hydrogen energy society and fuel cell vehicles? Is it early or late or synchronous? Is it too cold or calm and rational?
"The technology and industry of hydrogen energy cannot be solved because we are a developing country or start late." At the same time, as the leader and expert of academic and professional organizations in renewable energy and hydrogen energy industry in China, Guo Liejin told us his understanding of hydrogen.
It is safe to follow the standard specification.
Auto business review: Since 20 19, there have been many hydrogen-related accidents in many countries around the world, such as South Korea, Norway and the United States. The safety of hydrogen is full of production, storage, transportation, addition and use. Coupled with the power of the "mushroom cloud" when the hydrogen bomb exploded in historical films and pictures, people are still talking about the discoloration of "hydrogen". How to eliminate everyone's fear of hydrogen?
Guo Liejin: When hydrogen is used on a large scale, it is actually very safe as long as it is used according to its physical and chemical properties. Middle school chemistry, talked about the electrochemical reaction of hydrogen production by electrolysis of water, the reaction between metal and strong acid and so on. Hydrogen is flammable and explosive, and everyone feels unsafe, but it will only burn when the target space is full of oxygen, the hydrogen concentration is high enough, and it is close to an open flame. If enough hydrogen is burned at the same time, it is called explosion. As long as we use the standards and specifications of hydrogen, it is safe. It is certainly unsafe not to observe standards and norms.
Auto business review: Like a knife, it is a double-edged sword. You can save lives or kill people.
Guo Liejin: Yes. For example, if you take a knife, you will hurt yourself if you are not careful. I asked, is gasoline and diesel safe? It is also unsafe. As long as the operating rules are violated, the explosion is much more harmful than the hydrogen explosion.
Developed countries have done rigorous comparative experiments, such as a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, which suddenly caused the hydrogen tank to be hit and exploded, and it was blown up with shells. There is also a gasoline and diesel tank of the same size. Experiments are also explosions. Only the upper part of the hydrogen tank was destroyed, while all gasoline and diesel vehicles were destroyed, including the basic structure of the car. Who do you think is more harmful?
Hydrogen is the lightest of all substances. Once the jar is knocked open, it runs faster than anything. The fire hasn't burned yet, most of it has run away. The atmosphere also contains a lot of hydrogen, but the concentration is not enough and it can't be lit with fire.
Auto business review: The gasoline spilled all over the floor when it touched it.
Guo Liejin: Yes. As long as the gasoline is knocked down, it may still be there for several days. The smell is particularly strong and it is difficult to run clean.
Auto business review: Has the fuel cell electric vehicle been compared with the pure electric vehicle in such a destructive test?
Guo Liejin: Yes. Pure electric vehicles are more harmful, and the safety, efficiency and reliability of lithium-ion batteries of electric vehicles are greatly attenuated with time.
I sat down with an old expert who spoke today last night and chatted. His family has an electric car. He said that the first year was not bad, a few thousand dollars a year, saving electricity and money. But in the second year, I found that the car didn't drive as smoothly as in the first year, and it wouldn't work after three years. Electrical attenuation is too strong, performance attenuation is too fast, and charging is difficult at the same time. Slow charging, poor long-distance endurance, even worse in some places without charging piles.
Charging piles in existing cities are unreliable in a short time and have poor performance, and will break down after a period of use. It takes a long time to charge, and it can be charged quickly, but the damage of fast charging to battery performance is more serious. After three years, the probability of spontaneous combustion of electric vehicles is high. It is safe to use it within the specification, but not beyond the specification. On the contrary, hydrogen is less destructive in the most dangerous environment.
I opened it and ran away.
Auto business review: That is to say, under the most extreme damage, the safety of fuel cell electric vehicles is still the highest?
Guo Liejin: Yes, in an open space, such as an outdoor car or a hydrogen fuel cell car, its explosion is the least harmful. As long as the hydrogen bottle is opened, whether it is liquid hydrogen or gas hydrogen, it will spread rapidly as soon as it is opened, and the liquid hydrogen will immediately turn into hydrogen and run away. For example, if you light this hydrogen tank with a lighter, it may explode when you get close, but the damage around it will be less. Generally speaking, after a can is ignited, 30% of the cans will be very bad after burning, and 60% or even 70% of the cans will spread into the atmosphere.
Auto business review: Electricity and oil can't run away?
Guo Liejin: The battery doesn't work, not electricity. The battery is a chemical substance, it is a chemical substance like a bomb. Put it there, whether it is solid or liquid, it can't run away. The same is true of gasoline and diesel. Gasoline is partially gasified after high temperature, and the proportion of gasified components is heavier than that of hydrogen.
Auto business review: Maybe people lack popular science and cognition in this field.
Guo Liejin: When I came to the meeting last year, a leader from Foshan met me at the airport. When I got on the bus, he asked me about the safety of hydrogen. In fact, hydrogen is very safe. I have an example. We are the State Key Laboratory, and 1997 started to do research on hydrogen energy. Explosion-proof fans are installed in the windows used for hydrogen production in our laboratory, and hydrogen sensors are arranged in key parts. As soon as the hydrogen gas comes out and the concentration is high, it will scream and call the police. But it has been more than twenty years since 1997, and it has never been called. A group of researchers have been changed, and the alarm has not been called. Even if there is a little leakage, the leaked hydrogen runs fast and is not easy to accumulate.
Auto business review: Never in 23 years?
Guo Liejin: The alarm clock never went off. Very safe. If you light it with an open flame, it will surely burn.
Auto business review: That's irregular operation. This is a death wish.
Guo Liejin: Yes. So hydrogen is the best energy, and now people all over the world realize that hydrogen is the ultimate energy, which is in line with the sustainable development of mankind and the most environmentally friendly energy. We should widely promote the use of hydrogen as energy in all sectors of society. But hydrogen, like electricity, is not a primary energy source, nor is it the original form of natural energy.
Hydrogen production by industrial power generation is to use primary energy to produce electric energy and hydrogen energy, which consumes other energy sources. For example, electrolysis of water consumes electric energy, pyrolysis of water also consumes thermal energy, and photocatalytic hydrogen production consumes solar energy.
Auto business review: I see that you also have this special research.
Guo Liejin: Yes, we started our long-term research from 1997. At present, we are in the forefront of the world in technical research and industrial technology research and development. Especially for industrial development and large-scale application, our technical indicators are the best.
Hydrogen itself is not the terminal form of energy used in human production and life. What is the final form of energy we use? For example, heating uses heat, lighting uses light, and some energy must be converted into light, or some energy must be converted into heat. It consumes some energy and then becomes secondary energy.
When mechanical equipment is started, its terminal form is mechanical energy. For example, a knife is cutting, and cutting is accomplished by kinetic energy and potential energy. Therefore, before cutting things off, it is necessary to convert some energy into mechanical energy.
The form of energy we finally use is different from the original primary energy given to us by nature and needs to be changed. To put it more bluntly, just like farmers produce food in human life, if you don't produce food, you have to pay for it. Hydrogen and electricity, two secondary energy sources, are equivalent to money in life. Grain is exchanged for money, and then the money is used to buy other things. The same is true of energy. Hydrogen is made from coal, and then hydrogen is used to generate electricity or something. Hydrogen can be used to generate electricity and heat, and the conversion of energy forms is as convenient as money.
The wrong method of hydrogen production will of course pollute.
Auto business review: You just talked about coal. Now we mainly rely on fossil energy to produce hydrogen? Some people say that there are gray hydrogen, blue hydrogen and green hydrogen.
Guo Liejin: Yes, there are some names for hydrogen in industry or society, such as grey hydrogen, green hydrogen and blue hydrogen. This is meaningful in a sense. When the hydrogen production process produces pollution, it is considered that this hydrogen is unclean. But in fact, if you think about it, hydrogen itself is clean, no matter how it comes, it is clean. It's just that you caused pollution in the process of making it, which is not caused by hydrogen itself.
Auto business review: Like power generation, some people question that pure electric vehicles are not clean because the electricity they use is coal.
Guo Liejin: Yes. Why not question power generation? Two days ago, at the national hydrogen energy conference, I publicly asked, why not ask whether electricity is gray, blue and green, but not hydrogen? In fact, hydrogen itself is not polluted, and hydrogen itself is clean. As long as hydrogen is used, it will produce completely clean results.
Of course, we should go back and see if the hydrogen production process is polluted, and we should rule out the polluted hydrogen production process. At present, 99% of the world's hydrogen is still made by fossil energy through traditional methods, and a large number of pollutants will be produced in the process of making hydrogen. This is not to say that it is wrong to use fossil energy to produce hydrogen, but that the method of producing hydrogen is wrong and of course there is pollution.
For example, the traditional hydrogen production by pyrolysis of coal and natural gas is pyrolyzed in high-temperature hot air, partially oxidized and gasified, and then burned to form synthesis gas, and then steam is injected into the water-gas shift reaction to produce hydrogen. In fact, almost all hydrogen comes from water, and both water and hydrogen are clean. But when decomposing water, electrolysis needs to input electricity, and pyrolysis needs to input heat and consume energy, which is different from energy.
What we need to do now is clean and sustainable development, changing the methods of hydrogen production and power generation. Since 1997, our laboratory has made continuous efforts for more than 20 years, that is, how to use fossil energy to generate electricity and produce hydrogen completely and cleanly, and how to use renewable energy to decompose water to produce hydrogen on a large scale at low cost and high efficiency.
Renewable energy itself is clean. How to use renewable energy to produce hydrogen or generate electricity on a large scale at low cost is the way out for mankind. The electricity and hydrogen produced in this way have no pollution, the natural environment is good, and human beings can certainly develop sustainably.
Before human beings, God, nature and God were all good, and the universe and the world it created were sustainable and pollution-free. It is human beings who have developed modern industry and polluted the earth.
In short, all energy comes from the sun. What is the sun? The sun is the fusion energy of hydrogen reaction and also the hydrogen energy. The hydrogen energy used on the earth now is the chemical energy of hydrogen, which is the kind of energy stored after two hydrogen and oxygen atoms combine, and it is chemical energy. Hydrogen fusion reaction produces helium, which is the second element in the chemical periodic table. Helium produced by the reaction of two hydrogen isotopes is harmless.
The energy released by this reaction is huge, involving changes in the nucleus, which is called nuclear energy.
The nuclear fusion reaction of hydrogen in the sun provides us with all the energy. No matter how human beings develop in a short period of time, they are inexhaustible. Humans only take away the little energy that it shines on the earth's surface, and this little energy is not used 100%, only a few tenths of a percent. Nature has created enough energy for us.
This is not overheating, but disorder.
Auto business review: Are we overheating, supercooling or overheating at the same time in developing this kind of fuel cell or hydrogen energy?
Guo Liejin: At the meeting this morning, when Minister Jing (Vice Minister of Information Department of China International Economic Exchange Center) talked about the hydrogen energy industry development index project, I very much agreed with the statement that we are not overheated, but disorderly and chaotic. The overall planning is not good, and the overall strategic planning is not done well, so many things have been done in various places, and most of them have not grasped the key points.
Auto business review: No overheating?
Guo Liejin: It's never really hot. The key core technology has not been laid out yet, and the people who fry it don't know how to do it and can't get to the point. What is the use of heat? In fact, we are backward in the core technology of fuel cell vehicles. At the beginning of this century, China's hydrogen energy and fuel cell technology were also backward compared with the developed countries in the world, but the gap was relatively small.
Auto business review: Is it widening now?
Guo Liejin: Now the overall gap has widened.
Auto business review: In mastering independent core technologies, if we continue like this now, will the future be stuck?
Guo Liejin: You're bound to get stuck in your neck. If this state continues, it will get stuck in the neck. Our laboratory began to make two technologies, power generation and hydrogen production, on 1997, hoping to complete this transformation based on independent technology from the source, instead of continuing to use existing, traditional and worldwide coal and natural gas for pyrolysis and gasification to produce hydrogen.
The traditional method of hydrogen production is to use gasifier. In hot air or pure oxygen environment, coal is partially pyrolyzed and gasified there to become synthesis gas, and then the steam generated by another boiler is introduced, and the chemical reaction of gas-water conversion to water occurs, releasing hydrogen in the steam. The same is true for hydrogen production from natural gas. .
Our new method now is to let coal react directly with water from the beginning. This is not based on the pyrolysis gasification principle of exothermic oxidation, but on the endothermic reduction principle of coal and supercritical water. It produces hydrogen, but does not produce sulfur oxides, nitrogen oxides, dust and other pollutants.
Industrial development depends on the market, and core technology depends on strategy.
Auto business review: Take the fuel cell vehicle as an example. What can't we do on our own?
Guo Liejin: For example, catalysts and membranes are the two most important. We can do it, but not as well as others.
Auto business review: Who is the high-end occupation of Mount Everest?
Guo Liejin: The United States, Canada and Japan are better than us. Taking fuel cells as an example, we have done a lot, and there are also gaps in technology and technology.
Auto business review: If it is not too small, it will take up a lot of space and affect the structure and space of the car?
Guo Liejin: The performance is not as high as others.
Auto business review: Will this lead to its best scene in commercial vehicles now?
Guo Liejin: Yes. After use, the service life is not enough for parents, the performance index is not high enough and the efficiency is low.
Auto business review: I think there are dozens of cars in this exhibition, and only one is a passenger car.
Guo Liejin: Many technologies are also imported from other countries, such as membranes or catalysts and electrode plates. Many technologies of these plates are imported from abroad. Once this industry is formed, will this market be owned by others or controlled by others?
Auto business review: If compared with chips, do you think we are more dangerous than chips in hydrogen-fueled electric vehicles? Still a little behind?
Guo Liejin: Chip maker Huawei is also far behind. Not so optimistic. Industrialization is like this. From the perspective of hydrogen energy industrialization, it is not only a fuel cell, but also involves the manufacture, storage, transportation and application of hydrogen energy. Fuel cell is only an application end, and we still have a lot to go through in terms of equipment, technology, components and materials. To get through this industry, we should start from the source, think calmly, find those core keys, and arrange for tackling key problems. The country should make a layout, and don't let this market mess around, because it won't solve the problem.
Auto business review: This time, the state put forward the future 15 plan of new energy vehicles, emphasizing the need to give full play to the role of market players and let enterprises choose independently. How do you interpret it?
Guo Liejin: The industrial development depends on the market, and the core technology depends on the strategic layout. If you want to leave this industry, then you don't do it. Markets come from all over the world.
We must develop this industry on the basis of independent technology in order to be in an invincible position. If I bring all the good technologies in the world, I will be controlled by others. In order to make efforts at the source, we have sustainable and renewable methods and pollution-free methods to produce hydrogen. We are ahead of the world in renewable energy, such as solar hydrogen production and photocatalytic hydrogen production, and we are no less than the best international level. As long as it is well guided, it can completely realize the whole industry from technology to products to equipment manufacturing.
Auto business review: Besides the east wind, we can't say that everything is ready?
Guo Liejin: That's not true. American technology, the overall industrial chain leading, certainly better than us. But in some parts, such as hydrogen production, they are not as good as me in our principle. They also want to do it, but not on our scale. Your skills are superior, and he will go with you in the future. Therefore, our country should think calmly about what we should support, even if it is all support.
Now, all localities are rushing to build hydrogen energy parks and hydrogen energy industrial bases. And they have invested a lot of money to build something very similar. They have not mastered the core technologies of materials, components, devices and equipment, and the sources of engineering, technology and system integration.
Auto business review: What I just said is the lack of order, a top-level design and control of core technologies.
Guo Liejin: Yes. Cars are like this. Over the past few decades, the traditional automobile market has been huge, but the dominant position is not in the hands of others.
"Electric vehicles are also transitional products"
Auto business review: There are still some advantages in being a smart electric car.
Guo Liejin: The electric car is just a transition, and it can't be the ultimate. Today, the congratulatory message from Wan Gang (President of China Association for Science and Technology) will last for a long time. Personally, I think there will be a small proportion of pure electric vehicles in the future.
Auto business review: Do you think electric vehicles are also transitional products?
Guo Liejin: It is definitely a transitional product in the field of transportation. The ultimate must be a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, which can completely replace fuel vehicles in the future. 10 years ago, some ministries and commissions in our country took the pure circuit circuit of electric vehicles to the extreme. I opposed it at the expert group meeting at that time, and suggested that we should also increase efforts to support the development of hydrogen energy and fuel cell technology. Later, it was accepted, and now everyone accepts that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles should be developed.
Auto business review: There is no contradiction between developing hydrogen fuel cells and pure electricity?
Guo Liejin: Wan Gang said in today's congratulatory message that the two are not contradictory and will last for a long time. In fact, pure electric vehicles have their uses. For example, in many places, pure electric vehicles are very easy to use. But it has special functions and local scope, so it is impossible to use all pure electric vehicles. It also has many problems, the greatest security, the greater the later security. It also has one of the biggest problems. It is difficult to dispose of the batteries of pure electric vehicles after they are scrapped in the later period, which is as difficult as nuclear waste. Fuel cells do not have these problems.
Auto business review: Why do we say that fuel cell vehicles will eventually return to hydrogen instead of other things like methanol?
Guo Liejin: Methanol is just a substance for storing hydrogen, and it has not been directly used. Methanol fuel cell is to turn methanol into hydrogen after getting on the bus, and then use hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity. Saying "methanol fuel cell" is actually misleading.
Auto business review: This concept is very confusing.
Guo Liejin: Yes, because people don't know. Technically, methanol and ethanol are both substances that can store energy and are a way to store hydrogen. It will enter the fuel cell, which is called proton exchange membrane fuel cell. What is a proton membrane? Hydrogen ions are protons, and proton membranes are membranes that penetrate protons.
Methanol can't pass through, and methanol and ethanol will be converted into hydrogen when they reach the fuel cell vehicle. The process of changing hydrogen will also release carbon dioxide.
Auto business review: In recent 65,438+00 years, the United Nations Development Programme has been actively promoting hydrogen energy in China, and China has also been very active. Local governments and world organizations have been promoting hydrogen energy society and hydrogen energy vehicles. What do you think of this?
Guo Liejin: International organizations are actively doing this, because it is very beneficial to human development, and it is a good thing to promote this. It is necessary to gradually form a concern about hydrogen in the consciousness of the whole society and the people. Its realization is that many people know about hydrogen, but there are many questions and little understanding. No one asked about hydrogen before, but now everyone has, and that's good. It is good to know naturally.
Auto business review: Foshan government includes Nanhai district government. It seems that Foshan is betting on hydrogen fuel cars. what do you think?
Guo Liejin: Still far-sighted. Sooner or later, it will become like this. It is a good thing to have economic strength, to be a leader in advance and to be a demonstration in the whole society. It's just that we need to be more precise now, and don't mess around with repetitive things like other places, which will be more efficient.
This article comes from car home, the author of the car manufacturer, and does not represent car home's position.